Celebrating A Community and Church Without Walls

“At the Dale everyone is invited into full participation, an attempt to have people experience what it means to both give and receive, a value that is too often lost when one is consistently a recipient of charity.”Erinn Oxford, Executive Director & Pastor

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NORM:     Welcome to another of our sporadic and intermittent “On Further Reflections with Norm Allen.” I’m Norm Allen and with me is ErInn Oxford, the executive director of The Dale Ministries.  I’m excited to have Erinn with us today, because we’ve been friends for 12 years or something like that, and I have been friends with her husband Dion for longer - but we share ministry in the city, and ministry to people who have needs – I’m on one side of the street  - and Erinn is working a different side of the street, with a different kind of person in her enclave in Parkdale. So, before we start, I just want to offer an invocation that we use in some of our retreat material - just to set the tone for our conversation:

We come in these moments to God -
In our need and bringing with us the needs of the world.
We come to God, who has come to us in Jesus.
And who walks with us the road of our world’s suffering.
We come with our faith, and with our doubts.
We come with our hopes, and with our fears.
We come as we are, because it is God who invites us to come,
And God has promised never to turn us away.
Amen. 

I first met Erinn – we’re guessing around 12 years ago, when Touchstone still had what we called ‘The Sacred Space’ - a condo down on the Harbourfront, and a person who was a Board member of a ministry that she was involved in, directed by someone else, asked if I would have conversations with them about the future of the work. It became clear to me, as an old geezer in the ministry world, that there was substantial change needed - that there was little hope of survival – and that the building that they had wasn’t likely going to be there much longer; the finances were a disaster, and the only person who really had clarity of vision and purpose - was Erinn. And, it was clear to me that she was the person who - if it was ever to go anywhere - would need to be invited to be the director.

So - somewhere in that period, she was invited to become the director of this thing that had not yet become The Dale Ministries. If you were to look at it, it had no visible means of support or hope of survival. And yet - her story is one of those wonderful stories that I get great encouragement from the fact that younger generations are finding their own way to do ministry - finding their own way to understand God and their calling in life, and older guys like me may be able to be an encouragement, but we really don’t know how or what they are doing. It’s just - they have to figure it our themselves. Erinn’s story for me is an inspirational story of a younger generation person who found her own way and has now been productively used to lead a ministry that has some significant depth and breadth of work in the Parkdale neighbourhood.  

So - tell me a little bit about your background. You’ve been married for 25 years to that great guy Dion Oxford from Newfoundland. You have a daughter in university who has just headed off to Europe for a period; so, you’ve been doing cross-cultural communication with Dion for a lot of years, because you kind of came from the Lawrence & Yonge area. Tell a little bit about your background and how that may have shaped where you are at in your work today.  

ERINN:     Oh - thanks Norm. It is really nice to be here with you. Thank you for inviting me into this conversation.

My background: yes, I was born in Toronto. People often look at me a little funny when I say that, because so many people presume that people always come from somewhere else to live in the city - but I was born at Saint Michael’s Hospital to Elaine and Barry Grant. As you mentioned, I grew up around Yonge and Lawrence, North Toronto, a fairly affluent neighbourhood. When I was four, my brother was born - so: two of us. And then when I was about seven, my parents made the difficult decision to divorce. That had a huge impact on me - certainly all of us, in various ways. One of the significant ways, I think, was that my mom became a part of a church community that was very aware of her being a single mom, and made sure that we never went without. I am quite certain that there were times that they even paid our rent. On the other side of that, my father, who was still very much involved in our lives, was leading a life of more affluence. So, it meant that I had, sort of, one foot in two very different worlds at all times. 

NORM:     In a sense, people could immediately paint you as somebody that doesn’t really know about insecurity; but you had housing and food insecurity growing up, to a certain extent, as a younger person. And so, even though you could be seen to be somebody who had a lot of advantages, you were not unfamiliar with challenges in life.  

ERINN:     That’s right. I mean, I think that there were times when I didn’t even have to be as aware of them as some people end up being, because of this safety net that we had in our church - and my father, who continued to contribute to our lives, certainly. So yes, I think you are right: it wasn’t immediately obvious to people - and at the same time, it was very real.  

NORM:     How does somebody go from having a challenging life - and a lot of people coming out of that environment may say: Okay, I’m going to do everything I possibly can to never experience insecurity again! And you go into a faith ministry that had a lot of difficulty looking like it had any secure funding or future. It is an interesting thing that somebody like yourself has gone into a different form of faith experience. Talk a little bit about your journey from that upbringing to where you went to school, and how you ended up working in this side of the world.  

ERINN:     It was certainly not the trajectory I thought I would find myself on as a teenager. At the time, I was pursuing music, or theatre, as a career. I was doing a lot around that. I was all set to go to York University to get a Bachelor of Fine Arts and Theatre - and when I say I was all set, I mean I had been accepted - this is now August before the September that I am to go there, and for the first time in my life, I felt uncertain about that direction. It was unnerving, I didn’t understand it; I ended up visiting a friend who had attended Bible College. And in talking to her, listening to her experience, I started to wonder if maybe that would be something I could do. If not forever - maybe defer my acceptance to York, and do something different for a year, and then I would be back at what I understood and wanted even, I would say.  

I ended up at what is now Tyndale University. It was during my time there that a number of things happened. I met Dion - that guy that you mentioned I have been married to for 25 years - and I also met a few individuals who had previous lived experience on the street and were now students at the College - or at the Seminary. One of those people, Joe Elkerton, invited me to go downtown one night. This was something he was doing with great regularity. It was just to walk around the downtown core with bagged lunches to offer people who were living outside. I often say that I went down - it was a new experience for me, though I grew up in the city, it was a new experience to do this specifically - we are armed with these bagged lunches, and what was very dis-arming about the experience was how immediately at home I felt. I remember specifically being in the parking lot of the Royal Bank Plaza, there were a number of people who had set up - little houses, essentially, made out of cardboard. I was sitting there, connecting with people, and thinking I need to do more of this. And that was the beginning.  

NORM:     So, these people attracted you, rather than creating fear or… repulsion, or whatever may be the various reactions… Because people get very insecure with people who are different. That’s why it is interesting that you found them attractive, and not something different there.  

ERINN:     I think that we were able to immediately connect about some of the things that had been challenging in life. So, though the challenges that I had in life did not lead me to laying on the street in the way that they were in that moment; it felt like there was no need for me to hide that part of my experience. And we also connected on things like music, and so on.  

Yes - I certainly did not feel repelled - at all. 

NORM:      So, you ended up graduating from Tyndale, as it turned out, and at some point, you volunteered with Dion at Friendship Room, and then somewhere along the line, you ended up working in Parkdale with the organization that eventually became The Dale Ministries. Talk a little about that transition, and how you ended up essentially being… were you a part-time staff person with the ministry in Parkdale, or were you full-time? 

ERINN:     By the time we were having conversations together at the Sacred Space, I was closer to full-time. 

When I started in Parkdale, it was after several years of not working - or working, but in a different way: staying home with my daughter. I had been working at a place called Sanctuary, left there on maternity leave; decided that I really wanted to stay home with Kate until she was in school. Always thought that I would return to Sanctuary, but I really knew that I needed something part-time, and very flexible. There was this opportunity in Parkdale - very part-time - that would include doing music. I had discovered along the way that I could still incorporate music into my work. The person who was working there at the time - we had worked together previously. So, I knew that there was a similar philosophy and approach to ministry already happening in Parkdale. I was attracted to doing that. 

NORM:     What were the philosophical shapings of your understanding of ministry that ultimately have developed now into The Dale, that you saw, sort of in an incipient stage in the work that you were doing as a worker? 

ERINN:     What I learned at Sanctuary (and other places as well, that was very formative) - was the importance of placing at the core of whatever we were doing, people who often were not placed there. Making very intentional space for people who find themselves in the margins; there was something very important about doing that, and that it was very revealing of the heart of God to value - all people - those who were experiencing deep struggle. That was very important to me. It was also very important for everything to be relational. So, to discover ways to do this kind of work, not just me being a staff person doing something for somebody else but learning the ways in which we can then receive together. The importance of that, in a way it was different from a lot of social service structures, if that makes sense. 

NORM:     Yes, so much of what we on the so-called ‘helping’ side of the fence, think - is that I have to do to somebody, or do for somebody, when - as we have discussed in the past - you actually help somebody when you allow them into your own life, and they get to help you, and there becomes a mutuality to it, rather than: I got all the answers, or I got the money or I got the sandwiches - whatever it happens to be. You need to feel ‘lesser,’ because you are only a recipient, as opposed to we are sharing something together. Is that getting at what you are talking about? 

ERINN:     Yes, I think so. I think it’s really playing around with some of the power dynamics that generally exist, right? It’s saying that God has created a Kingdom that is pretty upside-down from the one that we are creating here on the earth. And so, looking for ways to live into that upside-down Kingdom includes making sure that it’s not just me giving, but it is me receiving, that I can experience deep care when I do that.  

NORM:     Let’s fast-forward to those times when we were talking about the future of the work, and talk about your own understanding of God, where the Spirit is in your life, how you make decisions. But, as I said in the introduction, I as a sort of a further-generation-down-the-road guy, saw no easy way that this thing was going to work. But I also saw in you a sense that there was something worth doing and worth fighting for, trusting God to move into it. I hesitate to use the old joke about the kid who goes out to the barn on Christmas morning thinking that they were going to get a pony and said, “Well, with a pile of poop this big, there must be a pony in here somewhere…”  But you know, you had that sense that the needy people, or the needs of people were there; some nascent structure was there. You did have a board, and a couple of good board members…talk about how something that should not have worked, ultimately has become a very fruitful thing 10 or 12 years later.  

ERINN:     No - it was pretty dismal! I would say that’s accurate.

What I would say is that: one of the reasons I felt so compelled to try and find a way forward, was that there was a very real community right at the centre of this structure, that was not working; but that community itself was thriving even - in a lot of ways. I remember feeling very compelled to say: This is a community that deserves to continue to gather, and if that is the case - I really, truly cannot imagine facing everybody and saying, “We can’t figure this out. We now have to close.” 

NORM:     So, you felt a responsibility to a community that already existed. 

ERINN:     Absolutely. I did, and a responsibility to grow that community. What was happening was important in that I could tell that it was possible to invite more people who didn’t necessarily have a sense of community or home, into what was happening. That felt important to me. Definitely. 

NORM:     You now essentially try to operate as the church without structure of a physical nature; you have community. You use buildings that often are empty for a good part of the week as resources. But you are not building-centric; you are community-centric. So, talk about what that looks like, sounds like - because that is a very different way… Everybody thinks you’ve got to have a building. Everybody thinks… and you have somehow - you have been part of creating something quite different. 

ERINN:     Yes - I will say that at the beginning when I made this intentional choice to take us - to give up a building, and to spill out really into the neighbourhood, onto the street, I could tell that most people thought it would not work. It was not that people wanted it to fail, but they could not imagine that it wouldn’t. And there were a lot of people standing back, waiting for it to fail. I knew at the time of making that decision - I mean some of it was just out of pure necessity. We didn’t have the money to continue to lease the building that we had been in for several years at this point. So, to begin to edge forward, we needed to extinguish as much expense as possible. 

NORM:     What was your budget your first year? When you started to say: Okay. I have now been invited to be the boss - what did you own by way of annual budget?  

ERINN:      Well - there were moments when we had less than nothing.  

NORM:     Right – that’s the thing that I want people to understand. That this is quite an interesting story, where - I have been a bit of an entrepreneur, pioneer - but you have been an entrepreneur spiritually in starting in a sense, a work (you could call it a business, but it’s definitely an organization) from scratch, with intensity, passion, but also with the ability to inspire confidence in board members, donors, the community that you serve. So, you started out…your annual budget would have been if you’d had one - well, you did have one… 

ERINN:     Oh - under $100,000.  

NORM:     Yes, I was going to say, around 60 grand or something - so it’s not much.  

ERINN:     Yes, that’s right. I think it was around 60.  

NORM:     Yes, I remember, because I saw the numbers. I was not saying it wouldn’t work, but I was sure wondering how the dickens it was going to work. How is this bumblebee going to fly? 

ERINN:     Yes - because we had, well we had only a single donor for so long. And that wasn’t really a good way to be sustainable. Because once that donor needs to back away, which in our case eventually, that donor did, then suddenly you are faced with a massive deficit. And also, by placing at the core people who understand or are dealing with poverty and a number of resulting issues; we weren’t going to be sustained based on the tithes or offerings of our people.  

NORM:     No - you needed people like me to catch the vision and write the odd cheque or whatever form of economic transaction we use today. Because your thing wasn’t sustainable from within its own community at that point. 

ERINN:     I had taken a little time off to discern whether I was going to step into this new role. And on my first day back, I didn’t even have a debit card or anything - I went and I bought some groceries out of my own money, put them in my car, and was driving to go to a drop-in. We always would have a meal as a group together - and the phone rings, it’s our bank, and I think - I should probably answer this. I pulled over to do that, and the person on the other end said, “I’m not sure if this is who I am supposed to be speaking to…” I said, “Yes, I am. But I need you to know that I am just back.” And they said, “Are you aware that your account is in overdraft?” I said, “No - this is my first day back. Can you give me an hour? And I will get right back to you.” And I got off the phone, sat there, and I thought: Is my first day back my last? 

I had been trying to practice being present to the moment, and I thought: Okay. Well in this moment I have groceries in the back of this car - I have a group of people waiting, thinking that I’m coming back today. Today we are going to have drop-in. So I made a few phone calls.  I spoke with one person and said this was the situation - this was a donor. And they said, “Well, what do you need to get through the next 3 months?” I said, “Do you really want to know?” They said, “Yes.” I told them. And they replied, “Okay.” And I started to cry. This person then said, “You don’t need to cry. This is just something I can do.” So, I was able to call the bank back. And the rest, you know, has been quite a journey since then.  

NORM:     Can you describe for me - because even I can’t visualize it. I’ve gone on your website, so I have a sense that you do have drop-ins and you do have gatherings in the sense that people come together in community in different shapes and sizes and forms. You’re now an ordained minister - you are the Reverend Erinn Oxford. I should be much more respectful of you. You do use buildings. But, people immediately think: So this is a form of church - without walls, without traditional structure. The church does meet around meals and eucharist and conversation and shared discipline and accountability - you have all those ingredients in The Dale. Describe what that looks like or how that works. 

ERINN:     How that works? So, at the beginning, two things happened. One was that I started knocking on the doors of buildings around the neighbourhood, asking if they had space that was under-used, and would they be willing to share. The second thing was that we already had a community that was very accustomed to transients. They understood already what it meant to need to travel around to find resources, and so on. 

Norm:     They in a sense were housing insecure, and your community is housing insecure. 

ERINN:     That’s right, this was an opportunity for us to learn from our community. I would say that what happened - it was very interesting that the community already had a sense that this was their place, and that it was important, and it was what motivated me to keep going, they suddenly felt an even deeper sense of connection, responsibility… They were fiercely wanting to protect what still was. That was an important part of the story. That you know - this was an opportunity to receive from the community. 

NORM:     Right. So, they could teach you some things. 

ERINN:     Oh, yes. And I had a lot to learn. And they had a lot to teach me.

So - buildings owners started to say, “Yes.” I like to say that what we were able to develop and what we continue to maintain is a ‘nomadic routine,’ and one of the reasons why it works, I think, is that we are in the same place for various things every week. It’s not - we are not nomadic in that people need to guess where we are on any given day… 

NORM:     You’re not a floating crap game or something… 

ERINN:     Yes, that’s right. We are very intentional about crafting a routine. It looked different yet again because of COVID, but prior to COVID, a week at The Dale would mean: on a Monday, we would gather at a Presbyterian Church in their fellowship hall for a drop-in that was centred around a lunch, and in an effort to invite people into full participation with our community, every outreach - a lot of people were engaged in making that happen, so people were showing up to set up the room, to help with cooking, and to clean up after. That was Monday. 

NORM:     These are members of the ‘recipient community,’ if you were to define it that way. But they are now part of the giving community. 

ERINN:     Yes - I would say, part of our ‘core community,’ is how I would describe it. Members of our core community – are very much a part of making that happen. 

Then Tuesday, we would have - I began to carry my office in my bag, right at the beginning of my time in this role. And then we would meet in a local coffee shop that was generous in letting us sit there for a good length of time. Or - we would meet in my vehicle! So, my vehicle became office - so many different things. We would store things. It was a storage room, it was an office, it was a check-in station; it was all these things.  

Then, we would meet - we would have a smaller drop-in at the back of a Salvation Army Thrift Store, which sounds like it wouldn’t work, but they had developed what they called a Coffee Corner - so, it was at the back of the store. It was where they kept their books. There were some couches, tables, a sink - so we could put on coffee, we would play Scrabble together. Sort of connect in a way that maybe the larger gathering on Monday wouldn’t allow. 

On Wednesday, we would do a lot of walking around our neighbourhood: outreach, pastoral care, visiting people in hospital - that was sprinkled around the week, but Wednesday was some of that. There was a Bible Study that we held - for the longest time in a coffee shop, in one of those old smoking rooms. Right? When they were first dividing where people could smoke, and then got rid of that altogether - but the room still existed. We would sit in this room in a coffee time and do a Bible Study.  

And we would also do an Art and Breakfast Drop-in at a Health Centre on Thursdays. Then be in yet another building on Sundays for our Sunday service. So, that’s what it looks like. It looks a little different again now though, I would say. 

NORM:     Yes - and now you have a number of staff, and you’ve got a pretty solid Board. So, what do you do now in terms of office and administration, and all that sort of stuff? Do you have at least a hole in the wall where you can park your bag for the day? 

ERINN:     Yes, I am sitting in the hole in the wall right now. So, when the pandemic hit in March of 2020, all our partner buildings with the exception of one shut down to us. Not just us - to everything. The one building that remained open to us was the Anglican Church building, that we were (maybe ironically) ‘homeless’ out of: it was the building that we originally gave up space in!  

NORM:     Right - I remember that. 

ERINN:     And now - this is full circle. They are the ones still offering us hospitality in a sense. It became the spot where we were doing all our food prep. All our mealtimes turned into meals-to-go. They allowed us to do prep for those meals, have some storage - and along the way, there was a little room that used to be a choir room, that they offered for us to use as an office. I don’t know that it’s ours forever - I think at some point it will end up being renovated into something else, but for now, we do have a spot. And it was a big deal to be able to have a place to hang our hats - and to have a printer: that was a glorious day - when we could finally have a printer.  

NORM:     What would the apostle Paul have done if he had not had all the different devices that we have? You have operated lean and mean and obviously have worked hard… When you talk about your experience of incarnational ministry: you really do believe Jesus is in you, He is in your community, and playing… doing puzzles or playing Scrabble in the back of a Sally Ann thrift shop is as spiritual an activity as singing a hymn or saying a prayer. That somehow it all becomes Kingdom of God stuff. Is that fair to say? 

ERINN:     Yes. Yes, I think often people will say to me, “Well, are you church or are you mission?” Like, they want to make that distinction. And my response is always: Yes. 

NORM:     Whatever you want me to be, I will be. It’s no problem. Just send money. 

ERINN:     That’s right. 

NORM:     Do you give to the church? Well then, we are church. 

ERINN:     Yes - that’s right. I just don’t see the necessity to make that distinction. I really think those two things are, like there is no way to untangle them. 

Norm:     I’ve been at this for thirty-eight-and-a-half years, and there are people who have been a part of Touchstone forever, and they’ll say, “It’s my church,” and they will then say, “I know Norm doesn’t want me to say that.” Because I don’t want to define ourselves as ‘church’ - I do define ourselves as ‘serving the church in its dispersal.’ Now you in a sense are ‘the church in its dispersal’ and gathering - all at the same time. It’s an interesting thing, because we have this sense of church as gathered - when in fact the church is always the church, whether we are visible or not. So, in a sense, you are finding the best of all options. 

Erinn:     Yes, I hope so. I mean we have a community member, a core community member who often likes to remind me that we are ‘living stones.’ We are the church. It’s never been about the building. And I think that has been a good reminder along the way. That we have not needed walls to consider ourselves “church.” That’s a big shift for a lot - for most people, I would say. No matter what ‘side of the street,’ as you have described - are on. There is this sense that this is what we are supposed to be doing. 

Norm:     You hear all the time from people, “Well, nobody from the church visited me when I was a, b, or c…” and then I will say, “Well, what about So-and-So: didn’t they come and bring you a casserole?” “Oh, yeah.” “Well - aren’t they part of your congregation?” “Oh yes, but the Minister didn’t come…” I am going: Well, wait a minute. The church came. Your friends came. That is just my old bitter soul, speaking out. 

So, what are - you have been 10 years now at The Dale. 

Erinn:     Yes, I gave up the building at the beginning of 2012. And now we are into 2023 - so, yes. We have officially been around for a decade, which amazes me. As you say, we have grown. I have a team, now. It went from being just me to a team of four, and a community that continues to grow and meet and all those things. And a really strong Board. 

NORM:     I remember there was a point where I got really discouraged after Year 1 of Touchstone. I went to see a friend of mine who is a United Church minister here in town, and a dear friend - and I said, “You know - I think I’ve made a terrible mistake. I should probably go to seminary and get really ordained and be a real minister.” He looked at me, and said, “When you say that something in my soul dies. Don’t even think about it.” We had no money - I remember I couldn’t pay for parking; I didn’t know if I was going to have enough money to get home and pay for gas. We were operating rudimentary - and that’s why I have such respect for what you have done. And yet you suddenly go: this is the price - you had groceries in your car, and you were going to have drop-in - even though you had no way of recovering the expenditure. And, you had made that decision before you called to find the provision that did come. In a sense, you had your own little wilderness test about, “Is this worth doing?” and paying a price for it. 

Now - when you look forward, you’ve got a little bit more security, you’ve got some structure (in terms of organizational structure) - what are the hopes and dreams of The Dale community? Or what are your dreams as you look forward to the next 10 years?  

Erinn:     Well, sometimes people ask me: Would you get a building if you could? Like, is that part of the dream?  

NORM:    Build a prayer tower, maybe. 

ERINN:     Something like that… And I still am quite convinced that I would say: No. I think that the way that we function now means that there are buildings that have been under-used that are being used. It means that we inhabit our neighbourhood in a unique way. I think that if anything, I see - I don’t think that I ever imagined us getting massive, as an organization. I could see us growing further than we are right now, because there is no shortage of need as a community - for any of us in it… 

NORM:     You must have pockets of people within your community that gather on a Tuesday but may not see the people on Thursday at the back of the Sally Ann thing. So, it’s not that you can’t create other pods of influence or mutual care. It’s not that everybody has got to be in the same room all the time for your thing to work. 

Erinn:     Yes - I think there is a lot of freedom because of that. We can be imaginative about additional programming. I think it also - if we were to grow as a staff, for instance, I think it just provides more opportunity for people to be visited, to be - you know: all those different things we do. 

NORM:     Your dream is just: stay the course. 

ERINN:     I think my dream is, yes. And that there is real beauty in existing in this community. I think there are additional opportunities maybe right now as we become better known for what we’re doing. There are more opportunities for us to tell our story more broadly - and not to go into another community and do it for them, but to say: This could be a way that you do something in your neighbourhood. Or, if not without a building; then teaching people more about focussing on relationship - about the beauty that is present in people who have very felt needs - that we have a common humanity, and that we are not actually that different from each other. And so - what can we learn from each other when we get together? And what can we learn about Jesus? 

NORM:     Yes, and you know when I first met Dion, he was in a course that Tobias had me teach once a year to his theologues that were supposedly seeing urban ministries, so they were going from mission to mission, and then I would have them in a Board Room to talk about Touchstone. And that would sometimes have them fairly irritated, until they found out that actually, we were not that different from the people that they thought they were going to go out and serve. Dion was in one of those meetings, and he was a bit cranky at the beginning - but near the end, he stands up and says, “Can I use your mission statement for the work that I’m doing at The Friendship Room?” He wanted to take our mission statement (which is: offer, encourage, and teach friendship in Christ among leaders in the blah-blah-blah community); he wanted to turn it into ‘offering, encouraging, and teaching friendship in Christ among people of the street,’ or whatever it was. It was like there was a synergy between what he and I were doing – but we knew it was also different. I feel the same way about you. Obviously, you’re a friend of Susan and me as well, but I feel a synergy with what you’re doing because it’s not dissimilar to what I have had to do for a long time. So, I encourage you, and admire you for the determination that you must just do the job, get up in the morning, and put one foot in front of the other - and that is faith.  

There is huge value in staying in one place for a long time. I have been around in the game for a long time, and Tobias had been around a long time, and Greg Paul and all the people who are my friends - Jake at Friendship, Dion - and there are an awful lot of people who came and went. There weren’t many people who were present in the community that they were called to serve for 30 years, or 20 years. And you gain a lot - of trust, of accessibility, if you just stay there. I don’t know what you think about that, but is that part of what you feel in terms of your dream? 

ERINN:     Yes. I was in a meeting not too long ago with some other sort of executives. The conversation was about: when is it appropriate to leave? We were talking about how important it is to talk about the context that you are working in, because, while maybe that is true for some people that it would be appropriate to leave after ‘x’ number of years, that I noticed that it is important to stay. That the depth of relationship that is built, the level of trust that is formed - is all so important. I have not yet heard or gotten the sense that I need to leave this place.  

NORM:     I hope you stay at it. Obviously, it’s up to you whatever our good God puts on your heart is what is put on your heart. So anyway - it is great to chat. I look forward to seeing where The Dale Ministries and you go. We have contact information attached here, because if you follow Erinn on LinkedIn or anywhere - her blog posts are always beautifully written and very poignant in their content, there will be ways for you to connect with her by email or to the website of The Dale, if you are interested in further conversation with her. 

Let me just offer an old Benedictine blessing which you’ve probably heard me use before. It’s one of my favourites, and I think it is appropriate for you: 

May God bless you with a restless discomfort about easy answers, half-truths, and superficial relationships, so that you may seek truth boldly, and love deep within your heart.
May God bless you with holy anger at injustice, oppression, and exploitation of people, so that you may tirelessly work for justice, freedom, and peace among all people.
May God bless you with the gift of tears to shed with those who suffer from pain, rejection, starvation, or the loss of all that they cherish, so that you may reach out your hand to comfort them and transform their pain into joy.
May God bless you with enough foolishness to believe that you really can make a difference in this world, so that you are able with God’s grace to do what others claim cannot be done.
And the blessing of God, the supreme Majesty, and our Creator, Jesus Christ, the incarnate Word, who is our brother and Saviour, and the Holy Spirit, our advocate and guide, be with you and remain with you this day and forevermore.

Amen

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