Sowing Seeds of Peace in this Angry, Anxious and Grieving Time in our Culture
/A conversation with Dr. Ken Derksen and psychotherapist Heidi Allen
(To watch or listen click these links or the ones at the end of the blog)
NORM: Welcome to another of our sporadic and occasional “On Further Reflections with Norm Allen.” I have been thinking about the context in which we are living at the moment, and the fear, anxiety and anger that seems to be part of our whole cultural experience, and I wanted to have a conversation with two people with whom I do have regular conversation; and are close to me. Ken Derksen is close to me - maybe because he is my neighbour; he is two or three doors down the road. He’s also my doctor, and I think he was a friend of mine before he became my doctor. He actually was on a retreat with a Touchstone ragamuffin group many years ago. And so, we not only have to deal with my abstemious lifestyle, we also have to deal with health questions; but also, we share our journey in Christ together. Ken has had some experience in study at Regent College in addition to his medical practice. He’s a father, and a grandfather. He is the chairman of the board of one of the larger churches in our area.
KEN: Used to be.
NORM: You are on the board.
KEN: Yes.
NORM: And so, he’s got leadership responsibilities in a whole series of areas. Heidi Allen is - has had the misfortune for several decades to be my daughter. And, in spite of the normal father-daughter stuff, we actually get along pretty well, and I have learned a lot from her. She is a graduate of Western University in Music, a graduate of Regent College in Theological Studies, and also has a degree now in Psychotherapy, so she has her own psychotherapy practice. She is also married, a mother, and has kids in school, and dealing with all the normal things that people deal with in our culture.
So, it’s interesting – we’re all hearing different things: Heidi in her psychotherapy practice, Ken in his medical practice, and me in the sort of alleged work that I do. We’re having a lot of conversations and hearing a lot of things behind what we see in the media. And so, I thought it would be a helpful thing for us to have a conversation. The kind of ‘working title’ that I have is: “Sowing Seeds of Peace in this Angry, Anxious and (in some ways) Grieving Time in our Culture.”
I’m going to open with a prayer from Pádraig Ó Tuama, who does a lot of work on reconciliation and forgiveness in Northern Ireland. He does retreats and a lot of other work but is basically in the context of all of the history of violence and thousands of people being killed - he has been a person of reconciliation. I think it might set the tone for what we want to say.
It’s called a Collect, and the prayer goes this way:
“God of Watching, whose gaze I doubt and rally against both,
But in which I take refuge despite my limited vision.
Shelter me today against the flitting nature of my own focus,
And help me find a calm kind of standing.
And when I falter, which is likely,
Give me the courage and the kindness to begin again with hope and coping.
For You are the one whose watchfulness is steady.
Amen.”
“God of Silence, who watches our growth and our decay,
Who watches tsunamis and summer holidays.
Who cares for the widow, the orphan,
the banker, the terrorist, the student, the politician, the poet, the freedom-fighter.
We pray to be nurtured in our own silences.
We pray that we might find in those silences, truth, compassion, fatigue and hearing
Because you, you, you see All.
And are often silent.
And we need to hope that you are not inattentive to our needs.
Amen.”
“God of Darkness:
You must be the God of darkness because if you are not, whom else can we turn to?
Turn to us now.
Turn to us.
Turn your face to us because it is dark here.
And we are in need. We are people in need.
We can barely remember our own truth, and if you too have forgotten,
Then we are without a hope of a map.
Turn to us now - turn to us.
Turn your face to us, because you turn toward us in the body of incarnation,
You turn toward us.
Amen.”
(From In the Shelter, Padraig O Tuama)
And so, we are coming here as needy people, not as experts. Not as people who are going to argue cases. But we are also in the midst of something that is an expression of our experience of Jesus, our understanding of our faith, and how this affects how we engage the world. So, I’m going to invite Ken and Heidi to reflect on what they are hearing in this difficult time in their two different practices; and it may be - you can take turns, or you can start, and one will pick up from the other - we will just see where it goes. But what are the things that we are hearing and seeing? Not only in your professional roles, but as parents, as grandparents, as people who are leaders in the community: what are the things that you’re hearing and seeing that we are dealing with today?
KEN: Heidi, why don’t you go ahead?
HEIDI: You go ahead: take it away.
KEN: Norm, I guess it’s not a surprise that there are waves - there are waves of anxiety. I was seeing earlier in the year tremendous anxiety in certain subsections of age groups. The 13, 14-year-olds were super anxious, and the 20 to 23-year-olds were super anxious. They were anxious for different reasons; but of late, of course, the controversy about vaccines, about whether we should have them, vaccine passports - has created a tremendous amount of anxiety for a variety of reasons that most of us know about.
NORM: So, Ken - would you say that the idea of the vaccination as the Great Hope (it was going to solve all of our problems) - and it has turned into, actually, an exacerbating ingredient, would you say?
KEN: Absolutely. A year ago, if we’d had this conversation, we wouldn’t be having this conversation about mistrust of a vaccine, or anger about how the government was applying, you know, rolling it out. Absolutely.
When I think about it, the first thing that came to my mind is that it is a real first-world problem. If you had a group of Christians on a Zoom-call in India, they wouldn’t be having this conversation about what we are having. They would maybe be angry that the government had not procured enough vaccines, or that the distribution was not equitable; but that’s not the issue here. It’s really this bigger picture of mistrust and anger and suspicion that has pervaded this whole conversation. That is where I would start off.
NORM: Heidi, what is your overview of the temperature as you hear it in the community and in your practice?
HEIDI: Well, certainly it is sort of two ends of the spectrum: there is very little in-the-middle “I can take it or leave it - don’t have an opinion.” Socially, community-wise, there is great polarization happening between people who might have used to be quite friendly… And I’m not even sure that it is that obvious yet, because we are still not back, full-on, doing everything the same way that we might have before, in groups. Certainly, a chunk of people have returned to gathering and things like that - and then there are others that are still: “I don’t know if I really should go to that birthday party with 60 people.”
I really think there is a lot of talking amongst those two groups, but not a lot of talking between the groups. So, there is a ton of talk in whatever group I happen to be in: “What’s wrong with those people? Why do they think that way? I can’t even fathom why they are doing this, or - why they are not doing this…” And I am imagining that the dialogue on the other side is probably the same. Certainly, in my work, I’m seeing that on a household level: in between members of the same family, having great difficulty working out the outcome of what they should do. Whether - is it safe to do this, or is it not safe? Should I get a vaccine, or should I not get a vaccine? And I’m seeing that as an issue, for sure.
NORM: If you were - both of you - from the point of view of trying to understand the basis for the polarity: why has it had to be polarized as opposed to just two different opinions about something?
KEN: Well, I’ll take a shot at that one, because that’s a hard one. And I wish I could say I’ve got the definite answer. But I certainly don’t… I’ve tried to think of an analogy in history where we’ve had a certain type - even from the Bible, you know: the controversy in the early church of whether you should eat meats sacrificed to idols or you should not - but this doesn’t fit. This doesn’t fit - because you either have the vaccine, or you don’t. It’s not like you can say, “Well, I can have an opinion about the vaccine,” - you have to actually take it. And once you have it, you cross the line into this little land called “Double Vaccination,” and a passport.” So, it’s not quite the same. And I am trying - I must declare my bias, and I will declare it right up: I am doubly vaccinated, and I really am very thankful for the vaccine.
I’m thankful for how the government has rolled it out. We can talk about that as well - but that’s my bias, and I will admit it. But when I try to understand my friends who take a very different opinion, I’ve got to recognize that there is always an element of truth in what they say. And there is a general mistrust of - of government because we have seen governments at all levels say things that were for political advantage. There has been a mistrust of Big Pharma. There has been a mistrust of public health officials, who on live mics have said things about the government that they wish they had not said. And it’s trickled down into the medical profession, that there is a growing mistrust of the medical profession, and what we say. So, I think that’s the undersurface, that we brought into it - and there is an element of truth in everything.
NORM: What about you, Heidi - what do you think the reasoning behind the polarity is? Do you think it is what Ken is saying - that either you have it, or you don’t, or are there other things going on in why it has become so politicized and angry, or whatever it is?
HEIDI: I think because, in making a choice it can be seen as - your choice affects other people. And so, it’s not just that you’re free to have your opinion and I’m free to have mine; your opinion and your actions affect me. And there is, sort of - flabbergastment - of: I don’t understand how we have gone from what we thought was a societal idea of the common good, to - there is no real ‘common good.’ And especially amongst people who are people of faith, don’t seem to take that into account. So, your decision to be vaccinated affects me; my decision to be vaccinated affects you (or to be not vaccinated). And it could be a life-or-death affect. So, you are just not free to just have a dialogue. And there is the whole other layer of the emotional buttons that that starts to push. And then you can’t use your brain anymore when your emotions are running hot.
KEN: I’ll just jump in here, Heidi: I totally think you have hit the nail on the head. But with vaccinations, we have never had - other than maybe the flu shot, but really not so much - we have never really had a vaccine which has created this, “I am going to affect somebody else.” So, if I don’t have a tetanus shot, you might die of tetanus, but it’s your problem. If you don’t get your child immunized for measles, that child might have measles - but it’s your family that’s affected. It’s not everybody else in their school. So, this is a particularly unique situation. We don’t have models for it. And I agree with you: now, it’s a sense that I am doing something not only for myself: maybe I’m 20-years-old and the statistics say that I can survive COVID; but you’re doing it actually for a societal benefit. For my brother’s keeper, if I can borrow an Old Testament thing. So, it’s not an example, it’s not a story that we have a lot of examples for.
NORM: And you alluded to the faith context. Do you think it’s worse within the community of faith, in terms of the polarization of sides; or is it just reflective of society?
KEN: I will just tell you - I think it is the same in both the community of faith, and the community which would maybe not identify themselves as having faith. In my practice, I see the spectrum, and I see the anxiety spread right across. I don’t think it’s particularly a faith issue - I think it’s spread right across equally.
HEIDI: Yes. I think the only difference is the faith community is good at beating each other with Scripture and adding that extra layer to the debate. That other communities maybe are not doing. So, it has an extra layer of damage.
NORM: But in this whole context, where do you both think the idea of Jesus saying, “Love your neighbour as you love yourself” - how does that affect how we perhaps should see each other, and might be able to converse with each other? I mean, where does the incarnate Jesus who is living in you and living in me and living in our communities, going ahead of us into the brokenness of the world, where does that fit with all of this? We can’t just… saying a bunch of Bible verses doesn’t help. I had to do a funeral not too long ago, and it’s always the John 14 passage: “Don’t let your hearts be troubled, you believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father’s house are many rooms…” etc. And the point I wanted to make to the people at the time who were grieving was: Jesus didn’t say those words as Christian whiffle dust to put over people. That was in the context of him having washed their feet, he had given a piece of bread to Judas who was going to betray him, he told Peter he was going to betray him, told them that they needed to love each other - and then he says, “Don’t let your hearts be troubled…” and meanwhile they are all about to go out to his trial, arrest, and crucifixion - their turmoil was going to continue forever. So where does the spiritual power, guidance, affect us in how we treat each other within the context of these kinds of things?
KEN: Well, let’s start off with that. You’re now getting to some of the hard stuff here. We had the easy stuff first. And you kind of warmed us up here. When I was trying to answer that question for myself, I try to look at Scripture, try to look at some of the teaching of Jesus, look at the apostolic writings, and I would say, clearly, over and over and over again, there is not an option for us not to handle this with humility and kindness and gentleness. There is no Biblical injunction for us to be harsh and polemic. So, I think that’s a start. Whatever we do, we must handle this situation with humility. And for me, that - I can only express my opinions here because of my biases, but I have got to be humble in my conversation. And as Heidi said, I hope we do have a conversation, because the problem is: we’re not having the conversation. That is one of the biggest: we’re not sitting down with each other and saying, “Let me listen to what your concerns are.”
But from my point of view, the humility that I need to express is that when I express a scientific truth, it is the knowledge I have at this moment of an incomplete science. And I am expressing myself as to what I think is the best for you as somebody I really care for. I may in six months realize that my advice was not actually completely accurate. So, I need to be humble in this. So that would be the first thing. I need to respect people who, for reasons I don’t know - maybe it’s an experience, because it’s often what we experience rather than what we know in our head. You know: ‘Grandfather died after certain things and therefore I have been scarred by it. And you can give me all the statistics in the world, and it’s not going to convince me because I loved my grandfather.’ So, it’s experiential. And I must respect that. So, I would start off from my point of view: humility and respect for the people that I am talking to.
HEIDI: I might add to that Ken, that that is one of the only ways I can start to step into the shoes of somebody I have a disagreement with. It doesn’t matter what the topic is, I mean: insert the topic. But to start to see the other person as coming at the issue with, as you say, experience. And you describe them making a decision from emotion, from a place of emotion. And you can’t talk to the emotional part of someone’s brain with facts and thoughts. You must talk to them on the level of emotion. And I think what’s happening, is - both ways, it doesn’t matter who it is - one person has an emotional experience, and the other tries to convince the [first] why they shouldn’t be having their emotions, or why they are not valid, or whatever. And the same goes the other way.
But when you start to be able to meet someone on the level of their emotion, then you can start - the brain - they actually see this on MRIs: the brain actually calms down somehow (I don’t know how to explain it medically), but it calms itself down - and then you can start to talk. So, you can probably see examples Biblically of Jesus talking to people on the level where he is not convincing them of theological facts; he is talking to them on the level of personhood and emotion and past traumatic experiences and all those things. And we can do that.
It is how I go: okay, maybe this is an explanation for what is happening here. For why they’re so upset. What’s going on? There’s got to be fear or hurt under there. They’ve got to have that deep fear and experience of just having their world turned upside down and being out of control, or whatever it is. So that’s the first mental, personal, interior exercise you do, before you can maybe enter into a discussion. It wouldn’t be helpful to have a panel discussion or a town hall meeting in a church or something, because people would just… You wonder why those meetings go wrong? People just start yelling and screaming, and they’re not thinking any more.
NORM: You mentioned the interior processing. As Heidi knows very well, I can be pretty ‘black and white.’ One of my favourite books has a cover that is half black and half white; it says, “I am right, and you are wrong.” It’s by a consultant - it’s actually quite funny in terms of dealing with it. But in terms of internal journeys ourselves - so, I have to face a conversation with somebody who I anticipate is going to be very different than me about - it may have nothing to do with the pandemic, it may be about something else - and how do I gear myself so that I am prepared to listen, and we can have an exchange of ideas, and we don’t have to - one of us doesn’t actually have to be right or wrong. We could both be right - or we could both be wrong. It will all be proven sometime else. Within the context of the tribe I was raised in, there were right ways to thinking about a lot of things. Which didn’t leave room for: Okay, I’m going to discipline myself and not impose my agenda on somebody else. I’m just going to listen, and maybe I will accept them for who they are. And so - I don’t know whether the cultural framework allows it. I’ve had to do some stuff… there is a particular politician in our country who, when I listen to them speak, my head wants to explode. And I have had to make a commitment to Susan that in my prayers in the morning, I try to think about him in a different way, and say, “He is my neighbour - he is not a [and it’s not a polite word that I use] - when I sometimes get mad at him. But he is my neighbour, and he is a Canadian. And he’s…” So, it’s like - I don’t know whether you guys struggle with that stuff, but to me it’s - how do I create a predisposition in myself to be a peacemaker, to speak strongly about issues but not necessarily have to win the fight or win the argument - I want to win the brother. Or the sister. I still want to be friends with the person when it’s all over. Does any of that make any sense for you? Do you struggle with that sort of thing?
KEN: Oh, all the time. All the time. And I think we have to be careful: which hat are we wearing? If you are a hospital administrator or the HR Director of a large corporation, you have to make some fairly hard calls right now. I don’t think we’re talking about that. We are not talking about the legal aspects of it - we’re talking about relational stuff. And I think I would be interested to hear the two of you talk about how we as people of faith can encourage people towards that ultimate faith where we don’t have to take control of everything. And I see a lot of - Heidi, you used the word ‘control’ - that in an increasingly complex world, where the amount of information being sent to us through the internet, through social media, is becoming overwhelming. Our ability to make sense of that, and to take control is overwhelming, and that is creating an incredible anxiety. Thirty years ago, you went to your doctor, you listened to what he or she said, and you probably felt good about it. Those days are over. And so how do we as people of faith say, “I don’t want to put my faith only in a) the vaccine on one side, because I put my faith only in vaccinations; or b) my own ability to control my destiny by my decisions. Which is a terrible way to live. How do we get beyond both of those positions, where I put my faith in Christ, and I make wise decisions based on reasonable information - trusting that if it’s wrong, I am still good, because God is good.
I’ll give you an example: Prime Minister Trudeau got the Astra-Zeneca vaccine. He got it. And he did it as an example to us all - my wife got the Astra-Zeneca vaccine. And now we look back, and we say: it probably wasn’t the best, but it was the best at the time. And we just need to understand whether we are trying to take control of our lives. I think it’s one of the biggest sources of anxiety. But I would be interested to hear from Heidi.
NORM: I want to pick up something that Heidi said that complements what you’re saying. Because part of it is that our whole society has become so individualistic, the idea that we work in community, so that we have a community of faith - we actually have a whole pile of people who all believe what they believe, and then they all walk sort of - whoever it was, the counsellor said: ‘He walked alone, she walked alone, and then they walked alone together.’ How do we find a way to walk in community, even when there is conflict? Because every good relationship, friendship, marriage, community - has conflict. How do we deal with that? Heidi, can you move on from where Ken went?
HEIDI: Yes, I think that control thing - the thing that went through my mind when you were talking, was how angry people are when the medical professional people come out and say, “We think at this point, this is the best course of action.” So, at one point they were saying, “Just get whatever vaccine is available. Please just get it.” And at that time, it seemed like reasonable (at least to some of us), it seemed like reasonable advice. It didn’t matter what brand - just go and take whatever is available, because the more people that just get it now, the more we can slow this down. And you could see people become - even people who are willing to be vaccinated - then needed to control: “What brand did I get?” That’s just what went through my mind. There is so much that is out of our control - we just want to grab on to the one thing that we can choose. Even though they are telling us not to.
I think we have a false sense that we are in charge of a lot, all the time. And it could possibly be a sort of North American - western civilization (if that even exists anymore) type of thing; because we go about our day, choosing so many things. And being in control of this: “I will go here, and then I am going to do this…” and whatever - and we haven’t been faced as a society with anything difficult for a really long time, in most people’s memory. Even the Second World War isn’t in the awareness of most people who are still alive and in control of anything today.
So, for me, I feel like the controlling behaviour is just anxiety, like you said - it’s just what I’m doing to try to calm myself down. To try and feel like everything isn’t terrible. But at the same time, there is a faith element that - I don’t know if it’s my personality, or whatever - but I’m also able to say: “This is the best choice we are making at the time, and now that they have come out and said different advice about vaccines, I’m not angry at them, because I actually feel like they’re doing their best. I don’t think that the government and the health care system is actually diabolical or capable of stuff, to organize some kind of secret thing. I don’t think they have that skill. Or time or energy or funds.
But I kind of go: I’m okay, if they are not exactly right, right now. I am doing, I am going to go with it. I am going to be okay, because I know that they are all humans trying to do stuff, too. And so, the faith element is faith in common sense, science - all of that stuff too - but there is also actually - you know what? If this is wrong, I do actually have a faith that somehow, God is still actually sovereign, you know - knows what is going on with me, but also with everybody else. It’s not just me.
The other thing that came to my mind somewhere along the way when you were talking, is that I have to continue to remind myself that whoever I am talking to, they are equally loved, created, cherished by God - as me. Even if we disagree. And that person is made in God’s image. For a purpose - not by accident. So - I don’t get to treat them badly. Even if I think that that would make me feel better.
NORM: It’s interesting: you use the term faith in … I think one of the things that frustrates me at the moment is, “Trust the science,” which is what people say all the time, rather than saying, “The best science exploration right now is the advice that the best people thinking about it have. But the reality is - to me (and it would be silly for an English major to be defining science) - but my understanding is (and Ken, you can rebuke me where I am completely incorrect), but a core of science is questioning everything. And doing the best they can to figure out what it is right now - but - okay that’s our best decision today. But tomorrow, we found out something else. Science isn’t some beautiful set of principles that says, “Here is the safe way to go.” It’s so reflective today of the kind of way that I was raised. “Have faith in these following immutable principles of God;” as opposed to, “Have faith in Jesus.” As opposed to “Have faith in God.” So, it’s an interesting thing - I think, Heidi you mentioned it - is that sense that we want security. Somebody spoke some scientific word - but any scientist worth their salt is going to say: Well, this is the best guess I have today with all the training we’ve got - we are still going to keep asking more questions.
Years ago, a friend of mine (I was having breakfast with him) and he was the head of cancer care in one of the provinces out west, and I said, “How do you as a scientist deal with all the questions people ask about creation and science and all that jazz?” He says, “There is no conflict between my understanding or experience of God and my work in science. All I’m doing every day is, I’m asking: ‘I wonder what God is up to here?’” And so, he said, “I do my exploring; I am learning, I am discovering, and I am always learning something new and something I thought was right today turns out only to be partially right.” So, we want these principles of faith that give us security, and none of them do that for us. Somewhere along the line we have to have some faith in the divine hand behind it all. Pardon me for that little tirade.
Ken, do you agree with my perspective?
KEN: Yes, absolutely - totally agree. It’s a movable bit of information that we have - and that’s where the humility - a scientist needs to be very humble; because they can be proven wrong. We could be proven wrong. I am not calling myself a scientist by any means but… the discussion is helpful, because I’m trying to think of this individualism as well, that Heidi talked about - where, really, other than obeying the rules of the road: that is for the common good. The other kind of big picture item where what I do may affect the global family would be the ecology movement. You know, where I recycle, and I don’t throw things into the [garbage] that shouldn’t be in the wrong place, because - not because it is going to affect me or even my children, but maybe a hundred years from now, the whole world will be a better place. But it’s not immediate. It doesn’t affect who I am going to invite for Thanksgiving dinner. It doesn’t affect who, or whether I sit beside somebody at church or not.
NORM: By the way - we are all available for Thanksgiving dinner!
KEN: We will go through that - as long as you wear a mask! But we haven’t had practice being a global community very well. No comments - other than I agree with you, Norm.
NORM: Can we come around to the end in terms of - I think we’ve alluded to it, and I think Heidi articulated it well: Regardless of what is going on, we need to keep reminding ourselves that we are each God’s creatures, we all have God’s identity in us. And that somehow, and especially if somebody is in a faith community, then we really believe that we are in the presence of Jesus when we are in the presence of another person, and that should certainly - and obviously, I can be very difficult to deal with - and so for me, one of the big disciplines is learning to keep listening to that - that person is a human being made in the image of God. I’m made in the image of God. We both are. We are flawed, but we are in this together, regardless of whether at core there are some things that we don’t agree on. But ultimately, loving one another becomes a fairly high priority. I don’t know how we implement that without first of all disciplining ourselves in our own meditation time, in our prayer time, in how we view the world. What are the practices that you find helpful for yourselves in that kind of thing? Or is that an unfair question?
KEN: Well, it’s a very fair question; it’s just a hard question. I am trying to think very practically as on a governing board in a local church, I am trying to understand principles that are bigger than the immediate issue. And the principle that I would go with is that we must be committed to worshipping Jesus. And I will sacrifice my opinions for the sake of that unity. I will wear a mask six months longer than I need to, because I want everyone to be there collectively worshipping Jesus. I still have responsibility to keep everyone safe, so that we are not harming others. And so, it’s a tightrope. On the one hand, it’s keeping people safe because I love them, and I have a responsibility for them. And at the same time, not exclude my brother because he or she feels somewhat different. So, it’s a tightrope, but I am willing to do it.
HEIDI: One of the conversations I had with somebody that I work with was about going into sessions with clients who - when we are talking about this specific issue - who have different opinions than mine, and what I’ve found is every time - Ken, you don’t have the luxury of meeting with people for an hour, like I do. You only have your ten minutes, or however long they need, and I don’t think it’s probably the same for you - but I get a whole hour with a client. And before I meet a client, I will read their intake form, and you form opinions right away, or you get a sense of “Oooh - this feels scary to me,” or “I don’t know what to do,” or “Oh - I think I can handle this,” or “This person seems strange,” or whatever. You pre-judge. And I try, though - what I’ve noticed is that as soon as I start to meet them, and I start to get to know them, and the more I hear their story - the way it works in my work is: I don’t tell them about me, but they tell me about them. So, they get a whole hour to tell me all about themselves and whatever is going on. And I have yet really, to come across somebody that I just continue to dislike, or don’t trust, or whatever - because the more they tell me about their life and their story, the more that I can figure out a way for me to get into what it must be like to be them. I trust that process now more; I go, “Well, this intake sheet - I don’t know what to make of this. But I know when I meet them, something changes.”
I have had a number now, of clients who are not vaccinated for various reasons. And sometimes that is the topic, and sometimes it’s not. But I have been able to understand why - in every case. I don’t have to agree with it, but I can see why they would be scared. And I can validate the fear, even. I can say, “It makes sense to me that this is scary for you. I get it. That must have been hard.” When you can talk to somebody like that - and it’s not my job to change their mind, and it’s not in my scope of practice to advise whether they should or shouldn’t take a medical procedure - but I can… I feel like if there was a time where they were to say, “Help me think this through,” then I could do that without feeling like I had to make them take a particular point of view or not.
I feel that the more you listen to someone’s story (if they give you that privilege), the more you can at least understand. Now, how we do that on a group level, I don’t know. Because I think that is maybe the problem, is that we are separated into groups, rather than people who are talking to people. There are still people out there who are not my clients, who I think, “I have no idea how we would start this conversation.” But I guess all I would do, is say, “Help me understand. Oh, okay - that must have been hard. I can see how that makes sense for you.” So, I don’t know.
KEN: I think that you’ve really made a good point, Heidi, that - six months to a year from now, this might be over, and as people within the faith community, we’re still going to be there. So, what seeds have we sown now to build that trust - because this is the model for conflict in the future. This will not be that last conflict within the Body of Christ, or within this society - there is more to come. How we do it will, I think, plant seeds of trust that will help us in the future. And when this is done, and another one comes along, we will have that relationship. I don’t want to break relationship because I disagree with someone. I want to build that trust, which is kind of what you are saying.
NORM: It’s one of the things that, in a sense, it’s why I wanted to have this conversation, or why we want to put it out as one of our little propaganda pieces in Touchstone - it’s that to me, some of it does begin in us tempering how we talk about whatever is going on amongst ourselves. So, when I start to be a bit ignorant about how I describe somebody, Susan will say, “I don’t think that’s helpful.” Well, that is actually a very helpful thing for her to do. And I see it in our Touchstone community - we’ve got a lot of diversity, and it’s very easy for one of those funny joke-things to come out, and suddenly, everybody’s got it in their email, and it’s disrespectful to somebody - or whatever it is. And it’s trying to create an atmosphere where we can actually care for each other as sisters and brothers in Christ, while recognizing that there is a huge diversity of not only opinion, but experience and pain and joy and sorrow. That for me, my insecurities are enormous; everybody else’s are. And for me to somehow accept that - that becomes very important. You come back to Jesus saying: Love God with everything that you’ve got. And so, if I’m somehow spending some time before the Father in His warmth, in spite of who I am; and Jesus says, “Follow me out into the world to love your neighbour,” - it has to have an effect on how I view the world and how I view people. And how I talk about people. I won’t say: “Oh - you are one of those.” I will say (more to Heidi’s point): “Oh, help me understand why you are thinking that way.” Now - that isn’t my natural predisposition.
So, do you each have maybe a last comment or two? And then we will wrap this up. I really appreciate you taking the time to do this. It is not an easy thing - there are no easy answers, but I really believe that at least in our little circle of a few hundred people in Touchstone, there are things we can do to reduce the temperature, even among ourselves. That then we can be a little bit of salt or light in our part of the world and maybe even ameliorate some family breakups or whatever. Because we are all feeling it. We’ve all got friends and family who are at odds with us about these things - and so, trying to find ways to plant seeds of peace in the middle of it becomes more important. So - any last thoughts from either or both of you?
KEN: Well, I am reminded of the apostle Paul in Colossians 3: “As God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness, and patience.” Patience takes time: the willingness to dialogue, the willingness to sit down with someone. To bring it back to something that we started with - we are not talking to each other. And love, I think, demands that we take that time. Patience, gentleness - let’s engage people because we love them. We don’t have to engage everybody - we don’t have time for that. But there will be one or two people in our lives that (probably this week), we need to engage in that way.
HEIDI: Yup. You quote the apostle Paul; I have been reading a lot of Anne Lamott, who’s somebody who gets enraged about a lot of justice-type issues. She constantly writes about her struggle - that’s part of her writing, is her struggle with things that don’t feel just and right. But she always has a view of herself that is in proportion to everything else. I don’t know how to describe that: her view of herself is humble. And her desire to understand people that she disagrees with comes from that. And she talks a lot about basically: you pray, and you breathe, because that is what you have got to do in order to live in a world where there are people doing things that just don’t make sense to you. And then, she talks about: basically you do kind things for people, and you take care of the poor. And it’s just one foot in front of the other. And that’s her way of coping with a world that feels overwhelming, with a world that feels too hard, and with people that feel awful - and she basically says, “I make God want to drink gin out of the dog bowl, so who am I to judge somebody else?”
And I feel that if we took a more humble position, like you are saying, Ken, then we might be ripe for a dialogue or for a conversation. But not before that.
NORM: Yes - loving people who come across our paths is a phrase that we often use in Touchstone. I am reminded when you were talking, Heidi, about a character in one of Lamott’s books. I am pretty sure it was a novel, not one of her personal writings. The character is talking to her rector, and saying, “I wish God would stop being so hard to discover and understand; and I wish he would just write in lightning: I exist, and here is what you are supposed to do. And then I wouldn’t have all these doubts, and my friends wouldn’t have doubts - we could have faith.” And the rector quietly listened to her for a while, and then said, “You know, the opposite of faith is not doubt; the opposite of faith is certainty. The quest for certainty gets in the way of us having faith.”
And so, I think that is part of the challenge that we have: I am certain about certain things. Less and less in number as I have gotten older. But the biggest thing is that I believe that faith in God and trust in Him somehow does direct us to do the things that you all are talking about, in terms of compassion and kindness, and justice and mercy.
So, thank you both for taking the time to do this. I’m going to close with that little Benedictine blessing that I mentioned to you, and then we will be done. It actually gets to some of the things that we have been talking about.
“May God bless you with a restless discomfort about easy answers, half-truths, and superficial relationships; so that you may seek truth boldly and love deep within your heart.
May God bless you with holy anger at injustice, oppression and exploitation of people, so that you may tirelessly work for justice, freedom, and peace among all people.
May God bless you with the gift of tears to shed with those who suffer from pain, rejection, starvation, or the loss of all they cherish, so that you may reach out your hand to comfort them and transform their pain into joy.
May God bless you with enough foolishness to believe that you really can make a difference in this world, so that you are able, with God’s grace, to do what others claim cannot be done.
And the blessing of God, the supreme Majesty; and our Creator, Jesus Christ the Incarnate Word, who is our Brother and Saviour; and the Holy Spirit, our Advocate and Guide, be with you and remain with you, this day and forevermore.
Amen
